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 Post subject: Changing the old music
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:03 pm 
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I remember a few years ago in Sound On Sound magazine Edgar defending the right to keep the old recordings as they were in a purist sense. They didn't need anything adding, no dance remixes or anything like that and interestingly the very thing has happened. Of course he has every right to change his mind but its strange how we change our feelings over the years.

Would Edgar have to get permission from every other band member that recorded the music ?

I remember Jarre saying he would never feel the need to re-visit Oxygene. He then made a sequel and 10 years after that re-recorded...er...Oxygene.

Oldfield did it with Tubular Bells 2 and 3. Then he re-recorded the first but it didn't fly. He then admited that the 1973 recording has its atmosphere and charm with all the mistakes, bad tunings included. I agree.

If adding, remixing, remastering brings other listeners in thats a good thing. For me, I prefer them to stay as they were.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:41 pm 
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Marbury wrote:
Would Edgar have to get permission from every other band member that recorded the music ?

Good point ...
It wouldn't be nice the composer credits get changed on the re-releases. We'll see.
I think it'd be great if the Tangram & Hyperborea re-releases smooth the way for Johannes to make a guest appearance at the upcoming live concerts ... :)

Regarding getting permission from CF: Could well be that CF is the reason Edgar had to re-record Tangram & Hyperborea. CF took the multitrack masters of the TD records he participated in with him when he left the band. Edgar said that in a recent interview, and that he has tried to get the tapes back in a court battle between him and CF. Whether he got the tapes back in the end, he didn't say.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:45 pm 
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Edgar is on record saying how unhappy he has been having to over-dub / re-record in this way. As others have said elsewhere, there are various legal issues that have forced him this way (to do with record companies, ex-members, film companies etc...)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:54 pm 
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He got better in overdubbing an re-recording with the years. What he did on Tangents is not of the same good quality compared to the new Tangram and Hyperborea snippets we've already got.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:06 pm 
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billythefish wrote:
Edgar is on record saying how unhappy he has been having to over-dub / re-record in this way. As others have said elsewhere, there are various legal issues that have forced him this way (to do with record companies, ex-members, film companies etc...)



This is a really awfull situation ,when a creator of these magnificant works of art cannot do exactly as he pleases with them.

Personally I welcome anything Edgar is willing to share with us be it old recordings reworked, or new material , it will still hold a magical feeling on each listen. - for me anyway :)

I thought copyright only lasted a certain amount of time?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:09 pm 
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timer wrote:
billythefish wrote:
Edgar is on record saying how unhappy he has been having to over-dub / re-record in this way. As others have said elsewhere, there are various legal issues that have forced him this way (to do with record companies, ex-members, film companies etc...)



This is a really awfull situation ,when a creator of these magnificant works of art cannot do exactly as he pleases with them.

Personally I welcome anything Edgar is willing to share with us be it old recordings reworked, or new material , it will still hold a magical feeling on each listen. - for me anyway :)

I thought copyright only lasted a certain amount of time?

So did I, but I think ownership / possession is another matter...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:12 pm 
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timer wrote:
billythefish wrote:
Edgar is on record saying how unhappy he has been having to over-dub / re-record in this way. As others have said elsewhere, there are various legal issues that have forced him this way (to do with record companies, ex-members, film companies etc...)



This is a really awfull situation ,when a creator of these magnificant works of art cannot do exactly as he pleases with them.

Personally I welcome anything Edgar is willing to share with us be it old recordings reworked, or new material , it will still hold a magical feeling on each listen. - for me anyway :)

I thought copyright only lasted a certain amount of time?



If Edgar decided to release a 50 CD box set of rare vault recordings from 71-85 people would still have a pop at him :roll: its a tired conversation IMO zzzzzzz

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:14 pm 
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billythefish wrote:
timer wrote:
billythefish wrote:
Edgar is on record saying how unhappy he has been having to over-dub / re-record in this way. As others have said elsewhere, there are various legal issues that have forced him this way (to do with record companies, ex-members, film companies etc...)



This is a really awfull situation ,when a creator of these magnificant works of art cannot do exactly as he pleases with them.

Personally I welcome anything Edgar is willing to share with us be it old recordings reworked, or new material , it will still hold a magical feeling on each listen. - for me anyway :)

I thought copyright only lasted a certain amount of time?

So did I, but I think ownership / possession is another matter...


You would have thought ownership/ possession would belong to the composser who put the effort in to create it, not some suited money grabber who probably couldnt care less about the music he has such a hold over ! :evil:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:16 pm 
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timer wrote:
billythefish wrote:
Edgar is on record saying how unhappy he has been having to over-dub / re-record in this way. As others have said elsewhere, there are various legal issues that have forced him this way (to do with record companies, ex-members, film companies etc...)



This is a really awfull situation ,when a creator of these magnificant works of art cannot do exactly as he pleases with them.

Personally I welcome anything Edgar is willing to share with us be it old recordings reworked, or new material , it will still hold a magical feeling on each listen. - for me anyway :)

I thought copyright only lasted a certain amount of time?



To me Phaedra2005 was a big fiasco, but during time Edgar has actually proven himself capable of doing more than justice to some of the recordings, which is very positive.
There's no rule for me how Tangram MUST sound, and after hearing the -'Chin', 'Puzzle' 'Future' and 'Solution' parts, I'm very excited about the outcome, it can only get better I think.
I think the trick is to find the stuff that works great in a reworked mode.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:43 pm 
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The danger of this type of thing using the current VSTs and drum loops is that they date very easily. The original recordings don't because they were more organic, unique sounds produced on custom built hardware that nobody could afford. The digital age is a double edged sword. It gives us a chance to make music with a huge choice of sounds for relatively little money but its then very hard to sound original.

Try creating the atmosphere and sounds of Zeit, Atem, Rubycon etc with today's all singing and dancing VSTs. Even the early 80's cleaner digital sounds had an organic edge.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:41 pm 
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Marbury wrote:
The danger of this type of thing using the current VSTs and drum loops is that they date very easily. The original recordings don't because they were more organic, unique sounds produced on custom built hardware that nobody could afford. The digital age is a double edged sword. It gives us a chance to make music with a huge choice of sounds for relatively little money but its then very hard to sound original.

Try creating the atmosphere and sounds of Zeit, Atem, Rubycon etc with today's all singing and dancing VSTs. Even the early 80's cleaner digital sounds had an organic edge.


Sadly parts of Tangram are showing it's age anyway (and that coming from somebdy who loves it). The real danger is pre-judging stuff before we hear it....if the results aren't good or to our taste then that's how it is. So far what I've heard of the remixes I like them a lot...and they'll work well in a live situtation

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:17 am 
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24db wrote:
Marbury wrote:
The danger of this type of thing using the current VSTs and drum loops is that they date very easily. The original recordings don't because they were more organic, unique sounds produced on custom built hardware that nobody could afford. The digital age is a double edged sword. It gives us a chance to make music with a huge choice of sounds for relatively little money but its then very hard to sound original.

Try creating the atmosphere and sounds of Zeit, Atem, Rubycon etc with today's all singing and dancing VSTs. Even the early 80's cleaner digital sounds had an organic edge.


Sadly parts of Tangram are showing it's age anyway (and that coming from somebdy who loves it). The real danger is pre-judging stuff before we hear it....if the results aren't good or to our taste then that's how it is. So far what I've heard of the remixes I like them a lot...and they'll work well in a live situtation



Well said.
I am a computer technologist by trade, have been for 25 years, and we saw this on the horizon, but were not sure what form it would take. Many of the leaps and bounds brought some interesting results, namely the unchallenged notion you can download, without cost, everything that has ever been recorded and put to digital.
Anybody with a cheap computer and limewire can mess other peoples art up pretty badly. As we have seen, several attempts to prohibit piracy, theft and general no-good-nik behavior have fallen rather flat. An example of a knee jerk reaction was Microsofts DRM. I am a firm beleiver that the honest music enthusiast will purchase his music. (ya, ok thats naive) Granted. I do think that if sombody for whatever reason, beit monetary or otherwise steals a track, or portions for any reason, there needs to be serious consequences. At the very least, blatant disregard for artists work, like the hundreds of tracks that I have found with TD in the background, try and market their product they lose everything. This thing is not going to go away, and I understand litigation is not always the answer (look what happened to ther states) But, and a big but, there has to at least be the appearance of zero tolerance when someone alters anothers art without permission. That said, maybe its better to work alone in these projects and just hire people with that understanding, they are being hired only and are not going to be able to lay claim unless pre-agreed.

Thank God (if there is one) That I have so little talent that these lofty issues will never effect me personally, what does effect me though, is the mood of the record producers and artists who are being ripped off on a daily basis. DJ's once played discs, now they have taken upon themselves to alter, with cheesy equipment, and even cheesier ideas other peoples music in the hopes of turning themselves into some kinda star. Well, that may fool inibriated youth, but it speaks to a larger issue of Ownership trumping posession. I knew when I was 12 years old that I was only buying the right to listenm and enjoy the music on my new LP, I did not have the right to fix how I saw fit. Many people are of the opinion they bought the disc, they own the content.

My idea, several tiered multi license for downloading files for your player, a subscriber fee for entertainment, 250.00 per year, download all you want. If you want to copy these tunes, or use them in your speach as background music or anything of the sort the cost dramatically increases so it is out of touch to the average schmoe, thirdly you cannot touch a hair on a piece of art or music without written permission from the artist, failure to do that will land you in prison with a gazillion dollar fine that you cxannot hope to ever pay. That with slow the shenanigens.

Remeber the mouse police that never sleep? Why cant we have the ipod police that never sleep.

Ok sorry, rant over.
Scorp :oops:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:35 am 
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Marbury wrote:
I remember Jarre saying he would never feel the need to re-visit Oxygene. He then made a sequel and 10 years after that re-recorded...er...Oxygene.


But did JMJ really re-record Oxygene? I can't tell any difference between the "new" recording and the previous Dreyfuss remaster, apart from it's "one louder". :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:16 pm 
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wayfarer wrote:
Marbury wrote:
I remember Jarre saying he would never feel the need to re-visit Oxygene. He then made a sequel and 10 years after that re-recorded...er...Oxygene.


Heh. :)

But did JMJ really re-record Oxygene? I can't tell any difference between the "new" recording and the previous Dreyfuss remaster, apart from it's "one louder". :wink:


The original was produced using a less than ideal setup (wasn't it recorded in Jarre's kitchen?) and the aim with the new version was to improve the quality of the recording *without* changing the underlying sounds/music at all. Given the "organic" nature of the album, it's incredible that Jarre managed to reproduce it with such accuracy.

Imagine if TD used the same approach on albums where the recording quality was a bit iffy. Exit and Flashpoint immediately spring to mind as possible candidates.

Dave


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:30 pm 
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DaveAS wrote:
The original was produced using a less than ideal setup (wasn't it recorded in Jarre's kitchen?) and the aim with the new version was to improve the quality of the recording *without* changing the underlying sounds/music at all. Given the "organic" nature of the album, it's incredible that Jarre managed to reproduce it with such accuracy.

Imagine if TD used the same approach on albums where the recording quality was a bit iffy. Exit and Flashpoint immediately spring to mind as possible candidates.

Dave


It really is incredible that Jarre was able to record the album exactly how it sounded. Both Exit and Flashpoint could do with a re-record in such a way. I'm not a fan of the bananarama versions of Flashpoint tracks, though, and I'm open minded about the tinkering otherwise.

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