Request/Petition for Edgar Froese Instructional DVD's

[Hipgnosis]

That isnt the purpose or focus of the request for the informational DVDs. Its from the technical "how to" side of it. The mixing, mastering, live performance configuration and set up side of it.

The technical side .. ohh yes ... there is a note from Edgar on this website somewhere that explains how they developed loops, or something like it ... and I can see a thing or two here.

Be mindfull that this is vastly different than learning Chuck Berry and/or scales ... and then go out on a stage and perform it!

In the loop example they got someone to do something to get a specific/particular type of sound out of it ... some of these today are envelopes and/or have other names for their function in a synthesizer, be it phaser, compression, whatever ...

When I'm writing a poem, I "see it in my head" ... and I scramble to find terminology to put it on paper ... AND for me poetry is better here -- hoping that a few words can create a visual ... that others might be able to see and interpret.

Likewise, Tangerine Dream music --- in the early days for me -- were extremely capable (another topic altogether) of creating "visions inside my mind ... that were totally different and foreign compared to "normal everyday life" ... and all my writing is off this space!

For Edgar ... this is the "trick" as I see it ... he hears sounds ... in his head ... and he plays on these machines looking for those sounds and helping those sounds he hears come to fruition ... can be difficult ... and one thing that people do is end up finding the oddest and strangest things and then "coloring them" ... so ... while turning on a machine something happened and Edgar heard a funny sound ... it will probably be used next time in one form or another.

The other way is ... I hear a sound ... and it creates a visual (this is how I am teaching myself music btw) ... and I use a musical passage that is close/similar to it, and try to assimilate the feeling that created with the "sound" ... and you can see this clearly in the early synthesizer days (Beaver and Krause and so on) when they were trying to get the synths to do sounds similar to the ones we "knew" ... in order to prevent these new instruments from sounding so "strange" and so "foreign" ... and folks like Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, Vangelis ... in a way ... took that foreigh sound and added melody to it ... so it would not be foreign to us ... but that is not to say that these "sounds" did not color something that Edgar, Chris ... or anyone in TD has ever seen ... chances are that it did, although I tend to think not as much in Jerome's case ... he did not come up in the "nothing" era of this kind of music.

So the answer to your question ... the trick to "creativity" is not what Edgar knows ... but what he sees. And the technology is centered around his ability to translate that through anything ... he would use a spoon on a microphone if it gave him the sound he wanted ... instead of synth ... I doubt ... SERIOUSLY DOUBT ... that the machines, and the technical side of it has anything to do with it all ... remenber this ... they were doing these things before all this "trickery" and "software" ....

I try to color a "feeling" with some words ... you would do this with an instrument or sound ... and by all means ... create your own "technical side" and "technique" ... this is the only thing that will differentiate you from anyone else.

Don't fight it ... I often call it in the JJ Godard school of thinking ... its "anti-music" ... you need to throw it all up in the air and then see what you have when it's all coming down ... YOU are the secret ... even to all the technical bs that is around ... don't get swept in the thought that knowing what Klaus does, or Edgar does ... will make you better ... it won't ...

Only YOU can make YOU ... only YOU can define WHO you are going to be ... don't be afraid ... stop asking others ... just get into the "vibe" of what you are doing and let it guide you .... you will NEVER regret this, or this inch of advise ...

Hope this helps ... when I read your bit I hear someone trying so hard to be as good and sound as good as someone else ... I think you will endup a much better musician and happier with your work if you sound like you and you learn to "color" and "describe" YOU ... through your own technique and ... whatever instruments you have ... and by all means use the spoons (Vangelis) and whatever else is available to help you enjoy your findings!

[Hipgnosis]

Hi,

Lord Byron used to say that taking (cold) baths was very good for his creativity ... it gives a whole different meaning to many of his poems!

I really think that discussing all the technical this and that of his ... is probably really boring to him. And I tend to think that he has not had a good time discussing electronic music ... and you can see why when you look at Computer Music ... Keyboard Music ... and other periodicals ... it is not really about the music ... and for people like Edgar ... I would think that this is sad. Really sad.

He, like me, was brought up in an era when artists were the spokes-folk for many things, including political ideas and literature. And the surrealistic movement was very strong in that era.

Dali's school and the people around there ... were really learning how to "let go" of daily concepts in order to free the "instant" memory ... and let it paint. Let it play. Let it write.

When it comes down to it ... all this is making me feel like Edgar can't do this without all these machines ... not good! ... lock him up with just a moog all over again for 10 days ... he will have 3 albums for you!

Some people are like that ... others need to learn and be taught.

There once was an exercise on our theater department from the psychology group ... and I thought it was funny. They locked up folks for an hour waiting for godot (or whomever) that never showed up. And they ended up finding out that some people had fun and some didn't. Some played about and talked and read and kept themselves "going" ... and others got upset and disturbed and bothered with waiting.

Same thing here ... I give you all the tech advise, and all I know ... and you still won't be able to translate it. Nobody ever can. It's too much!

In America this is worse ... here, other cultures and musics are not readily available (away from the biggest 5 cities which is most of the country!) ... and the end result is ... copy!

The only artists EVER remembered and appreciated are ... you got it ... the ones that did something different! So if this is the bedroom, or bathroom or attic ... and that person wants it private ... fine .. so what? Many public figures need to do this ... or they will never have a moment of peace in their lives. It's quite understandable.

I would think that the "trick" is ... that Edgar can lock himself up ... and come up with something/anything ... and have another project. So, until that "vision" is finished ... it better be private and quiet ... or it will never be finished! The dedication to that detail and moment in time is ... what makes an artist and creative person.

[Hipgnosis]

Hi,

... Yes and no. Because you see the idea to compose something, to be creative has nothing to do with technology....

[synthman1]

Be mindful that this is vastly different than learning Chuck Berry and/or scales ... and then go out on a stage and perform it!

True. No one asked for music theory or provide a demonstration on how the melody for Streethawk goes, right?

to be creative has nothing to do with technology

It's not that black and white. Creativity and technical knowledge go hand in hand. To take a photograph does in fact require a technical understanding of how all the functions of the camera work.

To create a sound on a synthesizer requires a technical understanding of how LFOs, envelopes and filters work and what their applied effect on sound is.

So the answer to your question ... the trick to "creativity" is not what Edgar knows, but what he sees.

No, actually it’s is what he knows, what he sees and HOW he produces it. Producing any art is combination of creative talent and technical knowledge.

But making a song is far more than simply connecting with your minds eye while planets align and inspiration flow through you like electricity. All artists who produce art, music, movies or performance have creativity.

There are also many "technical" aspects which involves functions or tasks such as tracking audio, mixing, eqing, mastering, signal chains, effects, midi, signal processing, etc.

Designing and conceptualizing prosthetic FX making for actor is simular in example. You can equate this to a song. What the FX looks like and carving the clay is the creative aspect-like composing notes and chords. But you have technical aspects and processes like casting the actors head to make a mold and mix the prosthetic alginate, bake it, etc.

Better yet, when Edgar develops the art work for a CD, what the design is relates to the creative process, configuring Photoshop to create that artwork at 300 DPI with proper margins for an industry standard size CD, CMYK color scheme, etc for the print shop is the technical process.

Writing a song indeed requires creativity and talent, but you then need to take that creativity and produce it by recording, mixing and mastering processes and techniques.

I think you will endup a much better musician and happier with your work if you sound like you and you learn to "color" and "describe" YOU .

Other musicians such as myself do it because we want to express ourselves in our own way, in our own style and vision. There is no monopoly on electronic music or any other style. Infinite possibilities of what you can do exists. Its a forever canvas for anyone who wants to contribute or express themselves. Even TD with all their output has only scratched the surface. I'm happy with my style, I like my sound, my composition methods are uniquely me just other artist would say the same thing for their own music.

Does or did Edgar Froese want to be Salivor Dali when he studied under him or do you think it was to gain insight to apply it to his own work?

When someone takes a course on website design is to copy the teachers design layouts or to learn the technical knowledge so they can use it in conjunction with their own creative designs and architecture?

The idea to learn more isnt to mimic or copy someone else. Its to apply more technical knowledge to what YOU do creatively. If you think that Edgar Froese learned everything he knows about music production simply on his own by trial and error, your fooling yourself and simply don’t understand what goes into music production.

How many people do you think Edgar Froese has consulted with about various things like, computer configuration and software synth optimization? About signal processors and with recording engineers, music producers, etc in over 40 years involvement in the music industry? No one? He was born with magical knowledge about everything? Come on.

I think you may be a bit disillusioned if you believe Edgar Froese hasnt gained any insight or knowledge from anyone else or there isnt more to producing a song or CD than just creativity and talent. Obviously, creativity and talent are necessary aspects. That goes without saying.

This is about having some simple advice and perspective from Edgar Froese to apply and improve your own work- or simply hear or see his thoughts on music processes for those interested fans.

Lets put it this way, musicians, producers and recording engineers all over the world consult with each other on various forums about techniques, advice and go to school to learn more about music production. You can go on website after website and take courses from this famous producer and buy that DVD tutorial from this famous recording engineer or musician, etc.

When you buy a Kurzweil 2600 synthesizer, it comes with a DVD tutorial on various functional techniques by Jordan Rudess where he show examples on how he configures the keyboard for patch switching performance in live use. He was demonstrating an applied technique, not "how to copy, look or sound like Jordan Rudess".

This request and practice occurs more commonly than you realize throughout the music industry. There are many sources to get technical advice about music production from many, many people. It would be great to have Edgar Froese's perspective and contribution as well.

Besides, its rewarding to help other people and a privilege to share your knowledge and expertise with others. I do this with what I know for many musicians who are just getting started, who have less experience than me or who are simply seeking advice about something they either dont understand or want different perspective about.

I cant begin to tell how much information I've gained from other people (include professionals) and also how much I've contributed in providing knowledge and advice for others related to music production.

[Hipgnosis]

Hi,

Synth ... just had a thought ... an exercise ...

Turn on a synth
Close your eyes
Flip 15 knobs without a care as to which you turn
Hit some buttons
...
pause .. take a deep breath!
...
Get your youngest child ... and ask him/her to play anything they want ... let them hit anything and turn anything ...
...
record it
...
Do it for about 5 minutes or more -- let's say -- some kids are more inventive than others in certain areas and this one might just hit more than one key or play with more than one thing ...

...
This will be the main theme and design of your next piece ... now let's see what you can do with it ... learn ... explore ... play ... enjoy ... create your own "tricks".

There are, all over ... a couple of really funny bits on many artists, and how they created some of their stuff:

Lord Byron ... cold baths!
Jorge Sena ... Bourbon and Soda!
Aldous Huxley ... Mozart
Jacqueline Collins ... good music
Robin Williams ... booze ... it loosens up the tongue!
inspiration is all over the place ...

If I may make a suggestion ... close your eyes ... let your fingers run a muck once in a while ... and you should find a "muse" that takes you in ... and that muse should help you define/add a trick or two ... or evening ... or that ellusive creative piece ...

Another suggestion ... that I like for myself ... you know what I miss the most fro the 70's in all this stuff? ... the "noise" ... the "weirdness" ... and the reason why was ... it was not "structured" ... and the end result of that "wildness" and "letting go" was that ... I was able to define my own space ... and not be influenced by someone else or advertising ... this means that I don't have Edgar's trix to write my poetry ... and he doesn't have my trix for his composing ... but then again we don't need it! We know what triggers us inside ... and we have learned to "translate" those messages and do something with them ...

You just have to find your inner messages and give them some more credit and forward-ness ... but you have to "do it" ... not think about it ... as the example above, take the thinking out altogether and just let it fly ... forget music ... what is it that you are left with ... no feeling? (you gotta be kidding me ... you're screaming as loud as a woman looking for a man or a man looking for a woman! So did I a long time ago ... btw) ...

[pb2rdf]

I think this is a non issue.

When Edgar makes instruction DVD's the result will be that a lot are copying Edgar's en Tangerine Dream's style.

Then you've got a lot of TD look a likes. ( I hate to think if this might be possible)
I think it is best that every serious musician finds his own style.
It's up to Edgar what he wants in this case, just write him a direct (e)mail if you like to know his point of view.

I presume he is training, informing, exchanging knowledge with Thorsten.

That's all I have to write about this non issue.

grtz, Peter.

PS.
Compare it to JMJ, how many youtube movies about copy-playing there are.

[Hipgnosis]

Hi,

A photograph does in fact require a technical understanding of how all the functions of the camera work.

Not necessarily ... I did not have the equipment and shot many bands and spent time with Gong and they used a set of my pictures for over a year on a tour of theirs ... I only worked in a photo lab ... taking pictures for me had to do with "catching that moment" "catching that second" in time ... that most photographers do not know when to find and get ... they will take 20 shots instead. This is what happens when you have the equipment but don't have the talent and vision to "see" ... and btw .. this is exactly the problem with 99% of all light shows and filming done of concerts ... really bad direction and design that doesn't even know when to highlight the artistry involved! And the moments in that artistry get skim'd over by a quick shot! ... it's not even talented design and directing ... it's just "photography" ... not even close or related to "art" or "artistry" or "talent" of the musician in question..

To create a sound on a synthesizer requires a technical understanding of how LFOs, envelopes and filters work and what their applied effect on sound is.

I don't know squat about these things ... but I know that some sounds I like and enjoy and can paint an image in my head for them ... as such I like to play with them as well ... so I picked up Arturia's Jupiter 8v software ... and it is fun ... and I'm not to the point where I can paint sound spheres for my imagination, but it is fun and I'm enjoying it ... despite my not know how to play keys/piano at all ... I have had some folks say ... that's really cool about some bits I have created. I don't know poop about that stuff ... and you know what? I don't care to know ... I just want to play and enjoy the sound of it ... forget the music part and just enjoy the "sounding" of it all ... and this is what I call the difference between the musician and the artist ... forget the "music" ... get into the vibe and flow of what you hear and do ... regardless of "music".

All artists who produce art, music, movies or performance have creativity.

We should really re-word this ... to:

All people, animals included, have creativity. However, it does not necessarily create art, although some schools of thought will consider anything "art". (... and of course a lot of top ten and daw geeks immediately think they are the next Beethoven or Mozart!)

There are also many "technical" aspects which involves functions or tasks such as tracking audio, mixing, eqing, mastering, signal chains, effects, midi, signal processing, etc.

I think that there is a time element here that is ... not good. When TD first started they were much more concerned with playing it and expressing it than they were in the post production side of it, of which the majority of this terminology applies to ... a veritable George Martin if you will. The tough side of it all was that it was difficult reproducing what was done before ... again ... since there were 1000 wires and so many connections that made things rather difficult to replicate ... and this shows clearly in the number of LIVE performances by TD ... it is not exactly by design that they are bored and/or can not play things as they were ... which today, of course, is much less of an issue ... being that with the DAW's out there and control software and ability to track keystrokes, now the chances of losing something is less of a concern ... but in my book there is a side of it that is lost ... and it is the freshness of bumping into a new area/sound/space that was available then and is not likely to be found now ... different spots will be found, but I'm inclined to believe that the older days, those spaces were "wider" in scope that today's space ... this may be my own mind projection though and I could be wrong here.

Designing and conceptualizing prosthetic FX making for actor is simular in example. You can equate this to a song. What the FX looks like and carving the clay is the creative aspect-like composing notes and chords. But you have technical aspects and processes like casting the actors head to make a mold and mix the prosthetic alginate, bake it, etc.

That is based on the assumption that I create things that way ... Now, reverse the process ...

Better yet, when Edgar develops the art work for a CD, what the design is relates to the creative process, configuring Photoshop to create that artwork at 300 DPI with proper margins for an industry standard size CD, CMYK color scheme, etc for the print shop is the technical process.

I tend to think that when he creates a piece, or art work it goes both ways ... a visual splash may give him an idea for a spot of music that he may or may not expand into a TD piece or a EF piece, or just a "bedroom pience" ... (so he can preserve his privacy!). Likewise, while playing, he might have a visual on his head that tells him ... ohhh do that with this and this in Photoshop next time ... and it may or may not relate to the music he is currently playing on or creating ...

I tend to think that Photoshop for him is a way to let go and relax off some of the musical stuff ... and just ... leave him alone ... in his own quiet space.

Does or did Edgar Froese want to be Salivor Dali when he studied under him or do you think it was to gain insight to apply it to his own work?

I can only speak from personal experience here ... did Huxley, Sartre, Elliot, Browning, Amado, Steinback, Dali, and so many others have an effect on me, being that they were going through our house in Lisbon when I was a kid ... ?

They might have had a bigger effect on my father and his translations and work ... but for me, there is a side that I see now at 59 ... and I call it ... an indomitable independence of spirit that I really atribute to many of those writers and artists. The biggest of these (FOR ME) is the great desire to get away from it all ... just so I can find my own space and expression ... because in the end, it is all about how each and everyone of these people expressed themselves and got away from the social commune academic teaching ant colony convulsions that we were taught as youngsters in schools. And if you treat music/art as a part of that "school" then you will always be judged by it as second best ... since they already have their "masters" defined. To me, the likes of TD, Klaus, Vangelis ... they are the new order, the new Beethovens (I like how Edgar makes faces like him and poses like him! -- must be an in joke somewhere here!) ... the new school of thought and music ... and I don't care about the old stuff ... I like it and I can listen to it ... but I'm not gonna spend 100 bux on some version of Tosca by an overtly tired local symphony and such and will save that money for Tangerine Dream ... or Edgar. (I can dream about tangerines now and then, hey?)

The difference here is not what they do or did ... and their "trick" ... is their own individuality ... I really think that when he is saying that it is like his own bedroom ... he is not talking to you in terms of technicalities as much as it is ... hey ... it's like me and my wife in the middle of our intimacies ... it's not a trick ... it's just something that sometimes you do not put into words ... the fine intricacies of your ____ doing ____ and then ____ doing ___ ... and many of us don't often have words for these things, or are embarassed to talk about them ... why is it that some folks think of it as he is hiding something ... as if all of us did stuff like that anyway ... sleep with our mates and do some ____ ... see what I mean? There really is no "meaning here" ... or "hidden context" ... per se. And I think it better to accept that "there is no trick" ... and besides, you and I can be cynical about this ... what is it in a bedroom that EF can do and all of us others around the world can not do? Close the door? Pull up the covers? Fluff that pillow? And what about how his wife feels?

How many people do you think Edgar Froese has consulted with about various things like, computer configuration and software synth optimization? About signal processors and with recording engineers, music producers, etc in over 40 years involvement in the music industry? No one? He was born with magical knowledge about everything? Come on. [/quote}

Probably more than a few ... but I can probably guarantee you that he, more than likely, does not have an affection for them much ... since many of these folks can talk tech, but they can't talk music and feelings ... and those two tend to separate when in the same room ... one goes left and the other goes right ... it's the same in physics particles, as you see opposites go different directions. But it doesn't mean they can't or won't work together ... I doubt that Roland, Korg or any of the majors don't bring in a new synthesizer for him to bang on every 1st of every month ... they would be insane not to, knowing that some of these folks actually helped define these machines in the first place!

This is about having some simple advice and perspective from Edgar Froese to apply and improve your own work- or simply hear or see his thoughts on music processes for those interested fans.

And the best advise he could possibly give you, I bet anything on it ... is ... be yourself. Which will probably send you for a few loops, since it is such a wide ranging statement!

I cant begin to tell how much information I've gained from other people (include professionals) and also how much I've contributed in providing knowledge and advice for others related to music production.

I don't think that any of us here are so cynical as to say that no one can say/suggest/help with anything ... I'm sure that we would not be here otherwise ... but there are some people that often think that this is a bunch of rubbish, as is the case of one poster ... an in a sense, it is ... but some of us are "artistes" and we can color our visions and words --- and some of us actually can talk about these things --- and then some can't ... or simply won't for whatever reason.

Selfishness and knowledge ... is a gift. And to me one is the opposite of the other. Share or not ... is not a decision I want to make for others ... but I can make it for me. I have found out that it doesn't make me less of a man, or a writer, or an artist ... if I talk about it ... so I personally don't have issues with it ... but like the one gent before us in this thread ... some of this is boring and doesn't have enough music to keep him enthused. What can I say? ... other than ... to me this is the very same fabric of the creativity that has helped define TD and many others ... although doing so conversationally might not be the best process for it ... it's communication ... and be it an instrument, or person, you either do it ... or you have a book/concept between you and that person/instrument ... and that defines how far you go.

You make the choice ... I say throw away the book and go to the instrument directly! Create the "music" from there ... not anywhere else ... create a new staff and music ... (a la PDQ Bach -- hehe couldn't help it!) ...

[24db]

Frank Zappa

Remember, information is not knowledge; knowledge is not wisdom; wisdom is not truth; truth is not beauty; beauty is not love; love is not music; music is the best.

[cantosis]

Just stick to making music please boss

[cantosis]

Seriously I can understand why he wouldn`t want to show his private space to the whole world. It would make a good raffle prize to one lucky person to spend a day in the studio though all at least a few hours.

[alipaul]

I would have thought EF would prefer to promote individual creativity than produce a number clones of himself via DVD.

Anyway this would probably take far much of his precious composing time IMHO

[Hipgnosis]

Hi,

Loved it ...

FZ is one of my favorites and just this past week I picked up Zappa plays Zappa ... and I have to tell you that .... wow ... unreal ...

Above all, and in a review that I wrote in another board about FZ's music, there is a side to his music that is rarely discussed or mentioned, probably because there are way too many people that were affected for it ... behind all that music was a man and his wife, that were very hip and more concerned with helping people survive their drink and drug trips ... specially during a time when it was not hip to do so ...

In the end, there was beauty in the person ... it's just a shame that he can get stuff played by a symphony in Vienna and in America so few care ... and the symphonies in LA and SF are never gonna touch Frank Zappa ... or Tangerine Dream for that matter! ... ... until the pompousness that FZ was famous for trashing is gone ... and then some! ... yeah ... going to montana soon ... with some hollywood dental floss in my teeth! and mr. roach is gonna sit there and wonder ... what happened?

[24db]

I would have thought EF would prefer to promote individual creativity than produce a number clones of himself via DVD.

Anyway this would probably take far much of his precious composing time IMHO

got more chance of Edgar doing a live set down at Flex in Vienna with Klaus Schulze doing a Kenny G impression for the over 40's