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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:03 pm 
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I've been wondering about this for a while, and I'm curious as to what other people think. From the text description for Springtime in Nagasaki:

"In November 2006 TD got the offer from a Japanese Business Manager, who turned 82 last year, to compose and record the so-called 'Five Atomic Seasons'. As it was clear that this was a real serious assignment, TD were told that the person who ordered the composition did study during his youth in the two cities which had been destroyed by atomic bombardments back in 1945, Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

The five compositions had to be in length 54 minutes each. Part one and two, - Spring and Summer 1945 - the client spent living in Nagasaki, while he lived in Hiroshima in Autumn and Winter of 1945, where he survived one of the most lunatic and barbarian war crimes ever done by mankind."

In particular: "one of the most lunatic and barbarian war crimes ever done by mankind"

Obviously, that's an anti-American comment. Subtle, but it's there.

So let's look at some facts. According to historical statistics, about 70,000 died initially, and another 60,000 succumbed to injuries in the months that followed. Compare that to The Holocaust, where the death toll is 11 million when all the different groups are included along with the Jewish population. And who was responsible for that? Oh right- a GERMAN.

Edgar has had a problem with the U.S. since the late 90's when the fan base all but disappeared and their albums stopped selling, and 10 years of dwelling on it has done nothing but continue to sour his outlook. OK fine, whatever. But don't completely ignore the horrific war crimes of your own country and start condemning other countries for doing what was necessary to stop a war that two other countries (Japan and Germany) started by their own violent and aggressive acts.

One last thing: the text reads that this businessman lived in Hiroshima in autumn and winter of 1945 where he survived the attack. However, the bomb was dropped on August 6th, 1945. That's still summer folks.

Thoughts everyone?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:18 am 
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TheXFactor wrote:
I've been wondering about this for a while, and I'm curious as to what other people think. From the text description for Springtime in Nagasaki:

"In November 2006 TD got the offer from a Japanese Business Manager, who turned 82 last year, to compose and record the so-called 'Five Atomic Seasons'. As it was clear that this was a real serious assignment, TD were told that the person who ordered the composition did study during his youth in the two cities which had been destroyed by atomic bombardments back in 1945, Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

The five compositions had to be in length 54 minutes each. Part one and two, - Spring and Summer 1945 - the client spent living in Nagasaki, while he lived in Hiroshima in Autumn and Winter of 1945, where he survived one of the most lunatic and barbarian war crimes ever done by mankind."

In particular: "one of the most lunatic and barbarian war crimes ever done by mankind"

Obviously, that's an anti-American comment. Subtle, but it's there.

So let's look at some facts. According to historical statistics, about 70,000 died initially, and another 60,000 succumbed to injuries in the months that followed. Compare that to The Holocaust, where the death toll is 11 million when all the different groups are included along with the Jewish population. And who was responsible for that? Oh right- a GERMAN.

Edgar has had a problem with the U.S. since the late 90's when the fan base all but disappeared and their albums stopped selling, and 10 years of dwelling on it has done nothing but continue to sour his outlook. OK fine, whatever. But don't completely ignore the horrific war crimes of your own country and start condemning other countries for doing what was necessary to stop a war that two other countries (Japan and Germany) started by their own violent and aggressive acts.

One last thing: the text reads that this businessman lived in Hiroshima in autumn and winter of 1945 where he survived the attack. However, the bomb was dropped on August 6th, 1945. That's still summer folks.

Thoughts everyone?


I'm an American and I think dropping the Atom bombs were acts of obscenity. However, being preached about war crimes by a German has it's own degree of absurdity.

All I care about is the music. I dont think one whit about world war II while listening to these albums. Edgar's goal maybe to tell a story with these albums but I ignore it completely. I use this music to take me where I want to go, not where Edgar wants me.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:37 am 
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My initial thoughts are that associating the act of individuals with the rest their national identity is absurd.

Anti-bomb isn't anti-US - at most you could say anti-US government at that time. There are some who would argue the bombs need not have been dropped to end the war as Japan was on its knees and they were dropped primarily as a demonstration of force for Russia to heed. I don't know enough to judge. Whatever. I see no anti-American sentiment.

And rather than disallow someone from commenting on these matters, the cultural legacy a modern German may found themselves burdened with may give extra insight. Who knows? It depends on the individual and to make assumptions on the characteristics of an individual based on nationality can work (he's German is he? bet he speaks german then) or can be plain dumb (he's German is he - well he best not be telling ME anything about bomb-dropping).

But the music is awesome.

But the music is awesome.

But the music is truly awesome.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:43 am 
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Contraversial but valid and interesting post X facotor. My dear old dad was seving in Ceylon (sri lanka) when Hiroshima and Nagasaki occured. Although he and his shipmates couldn't begin to understand what an A - Bomb was. There was utter disbelief throughout his ship as to what had happened. Years later when we watched a documentary about the bombs. My dad said ..although it killed an awful lot of people it did in fact put an end to a war in the pacific that would have went on for many years and in the long run cost many more lives. As far as the Holocaust goes it was implemented by only a few insane megalomaniacs who really believed Germany would win the war and rule the world.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:58 am 
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TheXFactor wrote:
.... In particular: "one of the most lunatic and barbarian war crimes ever done by mankind"

Obviously, that's an anti-American comment. Subtle, but it's there...


I had the same feeling within the first few seconds of reading the CD notes as well. I wonder when this would be raised here.

Hard to believe it's an anti-US comment, but I don't know.


Would TD (Edgar) ever consider composing a reflection on Auschwitz?

Given some thought, I think he would.



Neither do I believe we inherit the sins of our fathers.







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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:17 am 
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Edgar said "One of the most lunatic and barbarian war crimes ever done by mankind". How do you call dropping an atomic bomb onto a city - is that not a lunatic and barbarian war crime? Is it not a war crime because the U.S. did it? Is it so hard to admit that yes, in addition to WWII Germans, Americans were capable of committing war crimes too?

Maybe I can see your point if you define what you mean with being "anti-american".

I just noticed Edgar said "...war crimes ever done by mankind" (and not "done by Americans"). I interpret that in a way that he sees that it's not correct to say that countries commit war crimes.

In my opinion it's always people who commit war crimes. The people who give the orders and the people who are brainwashed and corrupted enough to execute the orders. Those human beings can be of any country, but the affiliation to a country is not the point. "Evil Germans" is an improper generalization, just like "evil Americans" (or inherently good Americans) is an improper generalization too.

Countries are an artificial concept anyway. If you look at a picture of Earth from space, there are no borders. It's all just in our heads.

Quote:
But don't completely ignore the horrific war crimes of your own country and start condemning other countries for doing what was necessary to stop a war that two other countries (Japan and Germany) started by their own violent and aggressive acts.


You really call initially killing 100.000 human beings in two atomic suns necessary? Are you serious?

Where does Germany ignore its world war crimes? And what has Edgar's disapproval for dropping two atomic bombs onto Japanese cities to do with all that?

And by your logic, Americans would have no right to condemn the European Union if (of course it never will) it started dropping bombs onto American cities and military installations, for stopping the violent and aggressive acts the American government presently commits against Iraqi men, women and children.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:08 pm 
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These days the term "war crimes" is used willy-nilly. Anytime a number of people are killed in a single incident, someone cries, "War crime!" Governments and politicians are uniformly blamed at the drop of a hat. Such overuse of the term in this present era is, IMO, rendering the phrase impotent and devoid of meaning. However, in times of war, it is an inescapable fact that there are going to be casualties -- even amongst civilian populations.

Do the atomic bombs dropped on Japan count as "war crimes"? Perhaps. I understand that President Truman fretted mightily over whether to use this horrible new weapon and ultimately decided it was necessary as a means to end the war. was his decision correct? I'm hardly one to render judgment. History, however, records that Japan declared defeat following the Nagasaki bomb.

XFactor certainly opens up an interesting debate here, but I think he is overanalyzing when he thinks that just because American audiences for TD's music has dwindled, it necessarily follows that Edgar has grown increasingly "sour" and "anti-American." Decreasing record sales are a poor excuse to grow prejudiced against a culture. Besides, as an earlier post states, the phrase used was "war crimes done by mankind" -- not just Americans. And if you check your history, you will find that there is probably no culture anywhere on earth that has not at some time or other committed some sort of "war crimes."

Even the Holy Bible (for you fellow Christians out there) declares that war and killing are sometimes necessary. Ecclesiastes (and a 1960s rock group) states, "To everything there is a season ... a time for war and a time for peace ... a time to kill and a time to be killed."

Finally, regarding XFactor's final comment regarding the dwelling place of the anonymous Japanese businessman who commissioned these superlative works by TD, the liner notes for Summer in Nagasaki states that the man left Nagasaki after the Hiroshima bomb to Kyoto to check on his parents. That is when the Nagasaki bomb fell, killing his girlfriend. The notes go on to say that he stayed at a Hiroshima monastery after that. Consequently, I suppose Edgar's music will reflect that atmosphere when Autumn in Hiroshima is released.

None of us knows what Edgar's motives or thought processes are/were when composing this incredible music. Personally, I seriously doubt that any sort of anti-Americanism plays a part in the compositions. Ultimately, it is the music that must speak for him.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:30 pm 
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Personally...I prefer playing and enjoying music ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:27 pm 
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So does anyone know how much commission it takes to get TD to write an album for you? How much money did this Japanese guy pony up for 5 albums?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:41 pm 
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24db wrote:
Personally...I prefer playing and enjoying music ;)


Well said Andy - this threads too heavy for me ! :roll:


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:59 pm 
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timer wrote:
24db wrote:
Personally...I prefer playing and enjoying music ;)


Well said Andy - this threads too heavy for me ! :roll:


;)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:05 am 
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Politics & Music don't really mix leave it to Bono

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:57 am 
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24db wrote:
timer wrote:
24db wrote:
Personally...I prefer playing and enjoying music ;)


Well said Andy - this threads too heavy for me ! :roll:


;)

Banana beer any one :D :arrow:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:11 am 
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rattymouse wrote:
So does anyone know how much commission it takes to get TD to write an album for you? How much money did this Japanese guy pony up for 5 albums?


Someone here has got to know.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:17 pm 
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If there are any fingers remotely wagging the finger of hypocracy in Edgar's direction over his generalised reference to mankind's atrocities, I just thought it worth bearing in mind that Edgar by birth in not German according to the sleeve notes in the Tangents box set. He is in fact
Lithuanian although he speaks little of it, as is his right (Apologies to all if I've misquoted!). Whatever passport he holds is his own business whether he be a German or Austrian citizen. He sees himself as a citizen of the planet and may have no particular allegiances. Reading the Questions and Answers section of this site gives a fairly comprehensive insight into the sort of person Edgar is, and losing your father the way he did makes you more than qualified to comment on mankind's ability to deal in absurdity.

In my opinion, his comments on the SIN cover are mere generalisations about mankind. Edgar prefers to express his thoughts and feelings through artistic and creative avenues whatever form they take and may feel that our short time on this planet would be better served if as a race, these considerations were given more prevalence as opposed to persuing acts of destuction. I prefer to believe that this is really the only message that his sleeve comment was endorsing. Only Edgar really knows. The music speaks for itself, so Edgar should have no obligation to even comment further.

Edgar was asked to create the music on the basis that he was capable of appreciating the depth of emotion within the subject, and I don't believe for a minute that it was undertaken as a cheap swipe at America (5 albums worth would be an awful lot of creative energy invested just to make a point, especially with his schedule). Afterall if he held any deep prejudice towards America he is the sort of individual who possibly wouldn't set foot in the place in the first instant and what do we see as the latest entry in the "News" section of this site - Edgar posing for a photo in California!


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