Tangerine Dream on BBC 4 TV in October

Michael66 · Post by **Michael66** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:10 am

All I'm saying is that in my opinion Kraftwerk gave the media an image to work with, and that image was something the foreign media LOVED to work with. That lead to more media exposure of Kraftwerk, which lead to more people getting to know Kraftwerk, more records being sold. The fascination with Kraftwerk was still evident in yesterday's documentation... and then what followed was one hour of "Minimum Maximum" .

On the other hand of course everyone discovers music in an individual way... but a Kraftwerk song might get played on the radio for the reasons mentioned, and then finds an unbiased listener having a spiritual experience.... that'd be just like someone seeing TD playing Logos Live and then gets so fascinated by the technology used on stage he takes up a study of electrical engineering... all possible.

But still I think Kraftwerk hit the sweet spot with the media - robotic Germans with side partings, unbeatable. It didn't matter no one looked like that here, except Kraftwerk.

24db · Post by **24db** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:25 am

Michael66 wrote:All I'm saying is that in my opinion Kraftwerk gave the media an image to work with, and that image was something the foreign media LOVED to work with. That lead to more media exposure of Kraftwerk, which lead to more people getting to know Kraftwerk, more records being sold. The fascination with Kraftwerk was still evident in yesterday's documentation... and then what followed was one hour of "Minimum Maximum" .

On the other hand of course everyone discovers music in an individual way... but a Kraftwerk song might get played on the radio for the reasons mentioned, and then finds an unbiased listener having a spiritual experience.... that'd be just like someone seeing TD playing Logos Live and then gets so fascinated by the technology used on stage he takes up a study of electrical engineering... all possible.

But still I think Kraftwerk hit the sweet spot with the media - robotic Germans with side partings, unbeatable. It didn't matter no one looked like that here, except Kraftwerk.

Oh I agree to a certain extent Michael. It was always said that Kraftwerk embraced their 'German-ness'...unlike TD who many in Europe thought weren't even German. However Kraftwerk's idea doesn't stand up at all, when they release English versions of their albums...then the bubble is burst. I totally agree with you about Kraftwerk's image...it's recognisable world wide. If you know them you can't see a traffic cone without them coming to mind. The graphic art and design of the albums, stage design and music brings everything down to the minimum. Stark imaginary sticks in people's imaginations...but it doesn't sell **** music...or perhaps to say it another way. Image can sell some records, but not for 40 years. I still think Kraftwerk's major advantage over other EM groups (TD and the rest) is that they had dance rhythms...and kids like to dance. Your average kid in recession hit England didn't want to sit down to 24 minute long tracks with their parents old lava-lamp for company, they wanted to go a club or disco and dance. Dance being the vertical version of s-ex and that's what most kids are thinking about...not synthesizers, concept albums or gatefold sleeves.

bigmoog · Post by **bigmoog** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:41 am

back when, I always saw KW as 'german electronic music' and Them Tangs as 'Cosmic'......I was young

if anyones interested I have a 300mb MP4 of the Doc

epsilon75 · Post by **epsilon75** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:44 am

bigmoog wrote:back when, I always saw KW as 'german electronic music' and Them Tangs as 'Cosmic'......I was young

if anyones interested I have a 300mb MP4 of the Doc

BM

Please send via download if you could

bigmoog · Post by **bigmoog** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:45 am

epsilon75 wrote:
bigmoog wrote:back when, I always saw KW as 'german electronic music' and Them Tangs as 'Cosmic'......I was young

if anyones interested I have a 300mb MP4 of the Doc
BM

Please send via email if you could

arrangements are being inititiated

sparrow · Post by **sparrow** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:48 am

Well I enjoyed it..My wife thought Faust were funny..and so did I..a cement mixer as an instrument.

I wish TD and KS had more exposure and Cluster got a lot of time. Too much IMO.

j_pertou · Post by **j_pertou** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:16 pm

bigmoog wrote:back when, I always saw KW as 'german electronic music' and Them Tangs as 'Cosmic'......I was young

if anyones interested I have a 300mb MP4 of the Doc

Very much interested BM!

bigmoog · Post by **bigmoog** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:27 pm

j_pertou wrote:
bigmoog wrote:back when, I always saw KW as 'german electronic music' and Them Tangs as 'Cosmic'......I was young

if anyones interested I have a 300mb MP4 of the Doc
Very much interested BM!

am working on the file now, link available as soon as possible.

j_pertou · Post by **j_pertou** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:28 pm

Cool! Thanks very much!

cantosis · Post by **cantosis** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:44 pm

sparrow wrote:Well I enjoyed it..My wife thought Faust were funny..and so did I..a cement mixer as an instrument. I wish TD and KS had more exposure and Cluster got a lot of time. Too much IMO.

Thats what peed me off, I am not bothered about Krautrock and the other bands, I just love TD so for me it wasn`t of much interest. Not enough TD in it for me.

Michael66 · Post by **Michael66** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:42 pm

24db wrote:However Kraftwerk's idea doesn't stand up at all, when they release English versions of their albums...then the bubble is burst.

I don't say Kraftwerk is trying to support fascist ideology... they don't. Their lyrics are not like that in any way. But I think they are using fascist aesthetics for elevating their recognisability... or maybe it was EMI's marketing idea.

Let me explain what I found so weird about yesterday's documentary, and why I then made the connection to the media's love of Kraftwerk: The first images I saw from "Krautrock" were some swastikas getting shuffled around on a yellowed map. I thought "What the heck is going on here, isn't this supposed to be about Krautrock? Why is the BBC trying to sell Germany's most important recent contribution to music from that angle to the viewers?" I don't know, you probably must be German for understanding how weird and awkward that looked (to Germans).
I suppose they did it for getting the viewers attention. A BBC documentary about a German subject just HAS to start with swastikas somehow. After all how could the BBC tell an interesting story about Germans without starting off with Germany's fascist past. Doesn't work. Or so that documentary's author thought.

It's all about what "clicks" with the viewer and listener. TD? Roedelius, Rother, Moebius, Schulze? Yawn... oh well, yes... innovative, creative, something for individualists. Not really for the mass- market. Kraftwerk? Now we're talking! Hypnotic, clearly defined structures. Shirts (not brown, but anyway it's a start). Streamlined, uniform appearance. Surrounding themselves with untouchable aloofness... Now that's something that could be marketed as German music!

And then BBC4 finished their "German evening" with this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvIg0pFYaSo

That's how "Minimum Maximum" begins. Red-White-Black. Colours everyone associates with Germany's Nazi past, summoning attention in the same way like the beginning of the "Krautrock" documentary with its WWII map.
They (Kraftwerk/EMI) soaked that music video with subliminal fascist aesthetics, while staying on the safe side of deniability all the time. NOT for saying "fascism is cool, why don't you join?", but for saying "Hi, we're the guys from Germany. Germany, remember? The country you love to hate. Now let's enjoy some machine beats together." It's all about how to sell something.

Unrelated: I found it fascinating how almost all of Germany's Krautrock musicians seem to have ended up in nice rural surroundings and on farms. Lucky guys.

A Hyperborean · Post by **A Hyperborean** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:24 pm

Michael66 wrote:
24db wrote:However Kraftwerk's idea doesn't stand up at all, when they release English versions of their albums...then the bubble is burst.
I don't say Kraftwerk is trying to support fascist ideology... they don't. Their lyrics are not like that in any way. But I think they are using fascist aesthetics for elevating their recognisability... or maybe it was EMI's marketing idea.

Let me explain what I found so weird about yesterday's documentary, and why I then made the connection to the media's love of Kraftwerk: The first images I saw from "Krautrock" were some swastikas getting shuffled around on a yellowed map. I thought "What the heck is going on here, isn't this supposed to be about Krautrock? Why is the BBC trying to sell Germany's most important recent contribution to music from that angle to the viewers?" I don't know, you probably must be German for understanding how weird and awkward that looked (to Germans).
I suppose they did it for getting the viewers attention. A BBC documentary about a German subject just HAS to start with swastikas somehow. After all how could the BBC tell an interesting story about Germans without starting off with Germany's fascist past. Doesn't work. Or so that documentary's author thought.

It's all about what "clicks" with the viewer and listener. TD? Roedelius, Rother, Moebius, Schulze? Yawn... oh well, yes... innovative, creative, something for individualists. Not really for the mass- market. Kraftwerk? Now we're talking! Hypnotic, clearly defined structures. Shirts (not brown, but anyway it's a start). Streamlined, uniform appearance. Surrounding themselves with untouchable aloofness... Now that's something that could be marketed as German music!

And then BBC4 finished their "German evening" with this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvIg0pFYaSo

That's how "Minimum Maximum" begins. Red-White-Black. Colours everyone associates with Germany's Nazi past, summoning attention in the same way like the beginning of the "Krautrock" documentary with its WWII map.
They (Kraftwerk/EMI) soaked that music video with subliminal fascist aesthetics, while staying on the safe side of deniability all the time. NOT for saying "fascism is cool, why don't you join?", but for saying "Hi, we're the guys from Germany. Germany, remember? The country you love to hate. Now let's enjoy some machine beats together." It's all about how to sell something.

Unrelated: I found it fascinating how almost all of Germany's Krautrock musicians seem to have ended up in nice rural surroundings and on farms. Lucky guys.

Not being German it hadn't occured to me that the use of Nazi, Fascist imagery was inappropriate, but yes you are absolutely right, it was odd and distasteful for that stereotypical, WWII type idea of Germany to be used in a documentary about the birth of electronic music. It's frustrating to me that Kraftwerk receive far too much credit for their musical ability and contribution to the development of the genre, and yes you are correct that they were far more image based and gave the world a stereotypical German image to latch on to. Kraftwerk produced image-heavy pop music relying on silly robotic, "German oddity" stereotypical nonsense. Tangerine Dream produced and continue to produce far more sophisticated music with no pop-attractive image whatsoever. When I first became aware of TD it was through the film Risky Business and it was at least two years before I even knew what the band members looked like, and what their world views and opinions were, beyond the odd small album cover photograph. In many ways I preferred the mystery of not knowing who they were or what they looked like to the current level of intimate knowledge that we have of Edgar and the rest of the band. To get back to the documentary, I was surprised and pleased that quite a lot of Edgar's interview was used in the programme, but disappointed that their music and it's uniqueness wasn't referred to more and their use of the technology as it developed to digital with MIDI as we moved into the eighties. To me the documentary was too short and didn't focus enough on the MUSIC and it's development; it looked at the sociological issues too much and concentrated on the far too experimental, unlistenable music of people like Cluster, Faust and all the other LSD fogged artists. It's boring to long-term fans like us that these documentaries always use Phaedra as the only worthwhile example of TD's music. Why didn't they talk about the start of Virgin records or the rate of change in the technology? The Synth Britannia documentary was far more interesting and well constructed, even to those with no interest in "Electro-Pop". Yes, there should be a full, at least 90 minute documentary about Tangerine Dream made by people with a thorough knowledge of their music.

hansx · Post by **hansx** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:30 pm

missed it again. my recorder did record anything at all, when I looked this morning.

prophetfive · Post by **prophetfive** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:16 pm

hansx wrote:missed it again. my recorder did record anything at all, when I looked this morning.

Repeated tonight at 11.00pm. What we now need is a Krautrock Pt2 1980-present day. TD would then come to the fore.

bigmoog · Post by **bigmoog** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:28 pm

link to BBCMOOGS Mp4 file now circulated to TD fans via email